Well been away 5 years and seems ddwrt has not moved forward

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Grandpa-Simpson
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Joined: 29 Dec 2016
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 17:04    Post subject: Well been away 5 years and seems ddwrt has not moved forward Reply with quote
Well i use to love the ddwrt fw, on my old router,
am currently using merlin, but i thought i might stop by

But seems the instructions are still only mention in a forum post, and not been corrected when you use the database search, which gave me a fw from 2014 Very Happy

I then found the right flash instructions, and can only say ARE YOU KIDDING ME, now getting ddwrt on router for the first time, was never something you just did.

You read first then you read some more.

But just to get kong on my Router i have to stand on my nose and hold my breath 20 mins, then say a little prayer

I mean come on Guys, why have you gone completely ape with the flash 1 time procedure, a little advice look at the calendar in 3 days we are writing 2017, but you seem stuck in 2007.

Try and change the batteries and keep up, i don't expect it to be easy but doing all that crap in the instructions, are just poor programming on your side.

Ill stop by in 2027 try and keep up, you used to be the best now your not even the next best.

Thank You
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SirSilentBob
DD-WRT User


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 0:40    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey Grandpa, perhaps you are too old to mess with this technological stuff that is way beyond your knowledge. Back in your day....blah blah blah. You had to walk 5 miles each direction, in the snow, uphill each way, to upgrade your router firmware. Its for us younger hipster types. Maybe spend another 5 years to study and then you'll have it. See you on 29 December 2021! Laughing Speaking of batteries, don't forget to charge your pacemaker batteries. I know that the youngsters keep unplugging them when they need to charge their iPhones... Laughing Laughing Laughing
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<Kong>
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 4339
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 14:13    Post subject: Re: Well been away 5 years and seems ddwrt has not moved for Reply with quote
Grandpa-Simpson wrote:
Well i use to love the ddwrt fw, on my old router,
am currently using merlin, but i thought i might stop by

But seems the instructions are still only mention in a forum post, and not been corrected when you use the database search, which gave me a fw from 2014 Very Happy

I then found the right flash instructions, and can only say ARE YOU KIDDING ME, now getting ddwrt on router for the first time, was never something you just did.

You read first then you read some more.

But just to get kong on my Router i have to stand on my nose and hold my breath 20 mins, then say a little prayer

I mean come on Guys, why have you gone completely ape with the flash 1 time procedure, a little advice look at the calendar in 3 days we are writing 2017, but you seem stuck in 2007.

Try and change the batteries and keep up, i don't expect it to be easy but doing all that crap in the instructions, are just poor programming on your side.

Ill stop by in 2027 try and keep up, you used to be the best now your not even the next best.

Thank You


It has not moved in the direction you want it, that is probably true.

If you compare us to oem firmwares, then you will notice, that they are:

-outdated, they use old kernels do not have any community support, they use old software packages e.g. old openssl versions

-they are not stable, when they release a unit

-they are always full of security bugs, as this mostly comes from the fact, that they try to be user friendly

-they hardly come up with new features that they didn't copy from opensource firmwares

If you look at our record, then you will notice, that there was no know security vuln. in the last 5y, that we support 10 times more routers then any other router firmware, that we have dozens of features other firmwares do not have.
We always ship current application e.g. latest kernel.

This kind of rapid development has its price. Fast moving means documentation is outdated faster than you can think and it is simply not doable to provide perfect clean documentation for every unit.

For some units flashing is so easy, that you do not need any documentation, e.g. R7000 and my builds, you just flash the chk with the R7000 name in it, that's it, after that you update via update routine and since I test flashing for every release, there is not really any danger.
For other units it can be more difficult, this also depends on how the oem designed his firmware.

DD-WRT is not trying to be the most user friendly firmware. For me stability/security comes first.

I fully agree on the Router Database. In its current form it is completely misleading:-)

To make this any good it would require 2-3 "maintainers" per unit, that could update a specific build number + doc e.g. flashing instruction.

But that is not in my hands.

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KONG Info: http://tips.desipro.de/
James2k
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 16:47    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Grandpa-Simpson



Because of your username and the Matt Groening connection Laughing

Quote:
Well i use to love the ddwrt fw, on my old router,
am currently using merlin, but i thought i might stop by


No, you thought you'd come poke the DD-WRT community with a stick for giggles.

Quote:
But seems the instructions are still only mention in a forum post, and not been corrected when you use the database search, which gave me a fw from 2014 Very Happy


See: http://dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54845. I think most people would rather see the router database either:

a) Nuked from orbit, as in its current form, I agree it's just confusing.
b) Actively maintained so it suggests useful information.

However, point B isn't easy when you see that there are only a handful of people working on DD-WRT in either dev or other capacity.

Quote:
I then found the right flash instructions, and can only say ARE YOU KIDDING ME, now getting ddwrt on router for the first time, was never something you just did.


Third party firmware isn't for everyone. Sometimes there is a learning curve. Kong mentioned this already but DD-WRT runs on a wide range of hardware, try maintaining the information for that! I mean the Wiki exists because users contribute and therefore you were at least provided the information you wanted. Sounds like a success story really.

Quote:
But just to get kong on my Router i have to stand on my nose and hold my breath 20 mins, then say a little prayer


Don't forget to do a rain dance also.

Quote:
I mean come on Guys, why have you gone completely ape with the flash 1 time procedure, a little advice look at the calendar in 3 days we are writing 2017, but you seem stuck in 2007.


Was that a pun with the Kong build reference. Cheeky! I see what you did there.

_________________
James

Main router:

Netgear R7000 overclocked to 1.2GHz - DD-WRT v3.0-r35965M kongac

IPv6 6in4 (HE.net), OpenVPN (with PBR and split tunnelling), Entware, dnsmasq with ipset

Easy ipset support for the R7000

VPN speed: Download: 77.96 Mbps Upload: 5.00 Mbps (AES-128-CBC HMAC-SHA1)

Yes you can get 50 Mbps+ with OpenVPN on a R7000 if you configure it properly!

Previous routers:

ASUS RT-N66U - The Dark Knight
WNR2000v3 - Bought on the cheap for someone else, neutered crap
WNR3500Lv1 - First venture into the DD-WRT world
ddaniel51
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 1444

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:57    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmmm, I'm 70 yrs old and I kept up, so did my routers.

From a stock Netgear R7000 the procedure is to flash dd-wrt.K3_R7000.chk "http://www.desipro.de/ddwrt/K3-AC-Arm/dd-wrt.K3_R7000.chk" from the Gui and viola you have dd-wrt.

If you are still using your "old" router you're being left behind.

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xKingx
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:26    Post subject: Reply with quote
ddaniel51 wrote:
...

From a stock Netgear R7000 the procedure is to flash dd-wrt.K3_R7000.chk "http://www.desipro.de/ddwrt/K3-AC-Arm/dd-wrt.K3_R7000.chk" from the Gui and viola you have dd-wrt.

...


My thoughts exactly. Any the funny thing, I just flashed a 10 year old Netgear WNDR3300 and with a 30-30-30 thrown in there it works just the same. So not sure where difficulty as mentioned by the OP comes from.

Happy to run latest dd-wrt on an out of support router by Netgear for some 5 years, within 15 minutes.

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DaveTheNerd
DD-WRT User


Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:54    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, Grandpa-Simpson is trolling and a little(?) whiny, yes. And Kong, thank you, your thoughtful reply helped to shed a little light on what DD-WRT is and isn't.

Security and stability with a few features that still aren't available in general consumer-grade router firmware. That's what DD-WRT is, and I do love it for that.

But having spent the better part of the last few years testing all manner of router firmware, and especially testing pretty much every mesh system on the planet for my "day job," I do feel like DD-WRT hasn't seen as many new features as it has simply security and stability maintenance.

Don't get me wrong, S&S maintenance is arguably the most important thing in today's world, and DD's commitment to that is admirable and appreciated.

But it's not sexy. Smile I was originally drawn to DD for the features that were unavailable on consumer-grade routers. VPN, QoS, Uber-configurability and flexibility. Now, though, most consumer router have enough of that to satiate even the nerds, and with mesh having taken its foothold in the market I wonder how long the nerds (we nerds!) will stay with DD?

I used DD to build a quasi-mesh of my own, as many of us have. Either wired or wireless backhaul between multiple access points, all broadcasting the same SSID, and it was blissful.

But comparing that to real mesh I know I'm missing a key element: with my quasi-mesh the router is not at all involved in helping to decide which client should connect where. Any chance of us getting some real meshing support with DD, where one of the routers/APs actively manages everything? 802.11k/v/r to do handoffs, etc?

That's how we could bring sexy back. 😉
cousinphil
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Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 12
Location: East Blue Hill Maine

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 22:14    Post subject: Reply with quote
All you dd-wrt experts should never lose sight of all the good you are doing, in this online community and in the wide world. There are many thousands of people out there who are thankful that this forum has helped them and marvel that such a thing exists.

We human beings, as a species, have made a mess of things all throughout history, every generation (Including Grandpa's), and to some people, things look pretty grim worldwide. But some feel, as I do, that communication is the key to pull us up out of the muck of ignorance. Networks. Internet. Wifi.

And facilitating communication is what we do. We are good at it and we are indispensable. Let us not forget. We are indispensable.
coletrain
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Joined: 01 Oct 2016
Posts: 172
Location: St.louis, MO USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:49    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its free. Get off your ass and do better.


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[MAIN GATEWAY] Netgear R7000 DD-WRT v3.0-r43324 std (06/02/20)
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[AP2-wired] Asus RT-AC68RD-WRT v3.0-r44467 std (09/24/20)
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==
YOU CAN'T STOP THE COLETRAIN BABY!
<Kong>
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Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 4339
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:44    Post subject: Reply with quote
DaveTheNerd wrote:


But comparing that to real mesh I know I'm missing a key element: with my quasi-mesh the router is not at all involved in helping to decide which client should connect where. Any chance of us getting some real meshing support with DD, where one of the routers/APs actively manages everything? 802.11k/v/r to do handoffs, etc?

That's how we could bring sexy back. 😉


Sorry but you and all the rest have no clue what a mesh network is, that is why a lot of companies now sell their products with the name mesh in it.

You are talking about 802.11k/v/r which has nothing to do with mesh. I have built mesh networks for fast moving nodes and know the limitations of such a network.

I know, that 99.9% of our users will not want this, they want fast transitioning, but not in the form you want, they don't want to setup radius etc. for their little home network. Thus WDS is usually all they need.

If we are talking about a mesh network, then we are talking about a dynamic network with route updates, moving nodes etc.

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DaveTheNerd
DD-WRT User


Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 14:02    Post subject: Reply with quote
<Kong> wrote:
If we are talking about a mesh network, then we are talking about a dynamic network with route updates, moving nodes etc.


Yeah, that's totally it. Is this something I can currently do with DD-WRT? I didn't think we had a way to do anything like this yet where the network participated in directing clients from one node to another to help with connections and load balancing, etc.

Testing some (but not all!) of the "mesh" products I've seen it happen where a handoff is forced, not just because of distance but because of load on the node. Get 3 clients firing up a Netflix stream and one gets bounced to another node. Seems to happen pretty consistently with some of them.

But yes, you're right. We want fast transitioning (which not even all the "mesh" products have) and some kind of involvement from the router in the decision tree.
edrikk
DD-WRT User


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 14:58    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's funny... I've also been away for about that long, and it was also my first reaction....
It may not actually be true, but it's the optics of it when you first step into the forums at least.

The peacock thread is a key culprit (or if it's true, the issue)... Meaning it points to builds from over 5 years ago as the recommended builds. But then it basically negates that by saying in ten different ways to try ten different builds.

I think that "bible" thread needs to be either updated or (God forbid) unstickied.


PS. The reason I came back was to check if did-wrt has transitioned from the old troublesome (in my experience) Broadcom UPnP implementation to the (IMO) better miniupnpd implementation, but it seems not.

Anyways, cheers all and happy new year!

In the end, it's great the dd-wrt, Tomato, Merlin, openwrt, etc all exist. It's always great to have choices...
<Kong>
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 4339
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 16:15    Post subject: Reply with quote
DaveTheNerd wrote:
<Kong> wrote:
If we are talking about a mesh network, then we are talking about a dynamic network with route updates, moving nodes etc.


Yeah, that's totally it. Is this something I can currently do with DD-WRT? I didn't think we had a way to do anything like this yet where the network participated in directing clients from one node to another to help with connections and load balancing, etc.


DD-WRT has a lot of features that are not known to the public, some require a few addons some a few commands.



Quote:

Testing some (but not all!) of the "mesh" products I've seen it happen where a handoff is forced, not just because of distance but because of load on the node. Get 3 clients firing up a Netflix stream and one gets bounced to another node. Seems to happen pretty consistently with some of them.


A mesh network will always have bad throughput, mesh is not designed for high throughput. But the commercial products I have tested did not work well when nodes were constantly moving, which means routes need to be updated often.

But those kind f features will be difficult in the future as almost all new radios now work with closed source firmwares.

All solutions that allow fast roaming need some background auth service and I this is to much for most home setups. And I think it should be much easier on the client level to implement something like this, the client can constantly scan for new networks, do auth and then when it thinks it makes sense, just switch to the new AP. Of course the client does not know what is best from the APs point of view.

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DaveTheNerd
DD-WRT User


Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 21:35    Post subject: Reply with quote
<Kong> wrote:
DaveTheNerd wrote:

Yeah, that's totally it. Is this something I can currently do with DD-WRT? I didn't think we had a way to do anything like this yet where the network participated in directing clients from one node to another to help with connections and load balancing, etc.


DD-WRT has a lot of features that are not known to the public, some require a few addons some a few commands.


I suppose this crystallizes what I've been feeling lately. I recommend technology to people for a living. For a long time DD-WRT has been an obvious choice because it provided relatively easy access to features that people needed and couldn't get elsewhere. Now, though, a lot of those features are available elsewhere, and easier.

VPN is a great example. DD-WRT was originally the only game in town. Slowly first-party firmware started adding this feature. Now, especially with Apple deprecating PPTP, running a VPN server on DD-WRT is a bit of a chore. OpenVPN requires third-party clients on Apple devices, and both OpenVPN and L2TP require convoluted configuration gymnastics to get DD-WRT to run them. Compare that to Synology or NETGEAR's implementations and these days they get the nod.

Quote:

A mesh network will always have bad throughput, mesh is not designed for high throughput. But the commercial products I have tested did not work well when nodes were constantly moving, which means routes need to be updated often.


Certainly a mesh that's relying upon the same radios for both fronthaul and backhaul is not designed for speed, but when you add a third Wi-Fi radio for backhaul-only or use Ethernet for backhaul, now mesh can be very fast.

The mesh offerings are all evolving in this regard. Eero and Luma support Ethernet backhaul. Orbi does not support that yet, but could with a software update. Orbi's also a bit odd because it's really not a mesh, rather it's a star configuration using the 3rd 4x4 radio for backhaul. But it's amazingly long-range and really fast, which makes it worth keeping an eye on as the software develops over time.

Would it make sense to look at Open-Mesh/B.A.T.M.A.N. for DD-WRT to manage the mesh stuff? I may be showing my ignorance here about what's possible with the current foundation, but figured I'd ask.

I've been using DD-WRT for well over a decade and recommending it to others for equally as long. I'd just like to see it remain something that makes sense in the future.
lollabie
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:47    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I kinda agree there are a few things which have been neglected over the years. The biggest ones for me are these:

Website
It's very dated and points to resources that are out of date (wiki and router DB).
I think that scares people off especially since the reasoning is "if the website looks old and crappy, the dd-wrt firmware is probably the same".
Not saying that it's good but that's the way users think.

Builds
There's little information about current builds. It's almost impossible to find an up to date version of dd-wrt for a particular router.
The workflow of getting a build for a broadcom router is currently:
1)Look into the forums
2)Search for threads where people post about experiences with builds
3)Pick one where there are few negative comments

And to be able to know that and do that already requires some knowledge (difference between BS and Kong builds, the fact that the router DB is completely out of date etc)
And that's just crazy. I have no way of knowing if that build is actually good and even more so, what's been changed since the version I previously used. The SVN logs aren't really informative to people IMO. And neither should they be. They are there for a dev to comment on a commit and not to create a changelog which can be read by users.

My recommendation would be:
Create builds with actual changelogs written by the devs where they explain what they changed.
I'd rather have builds in longer intervals but with proper information and testing.
If you wanna get somewhat professional you can do major releases every few months and minor bug fix releases when required in-between.



Now all of that said, I want to say the work the devs and the community here in the forum are doing is amazing. I'm not writing this because I think they are doing a bad job but because I want to help improve dd-wrt with this suggestion.
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