Netgear R8000

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JW0914
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Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:21    Post subject: Reply with quote
<Kong> wrote:
JW0914 wrote:
slidermike wrote:
Amazon shows the R8000 in stock & for sale here in the U.S.

Anyone going to drop serious coin on it?
$300 US.

I am happy with my R7000 & Kong firmware.


While it may be available for purchase, it won't ship until the 11th, when its RTM.

Anyone who does buy it is wasting their money and buying a product that will be obsolete by the last quarter of the year due to true MU-MIMO being released by ASUS and another manufacturer late this year.



Complete bullshit. If you don't have the R7000 yet, then this is the best you can get right now. Although the R7000 will give you almost the same features for a much better price.

MU_MIMO, will have the same stability problems as AC had in the beginning. Thus before MU_MIMO works with a large set of clients it will take at least 1-1,5y. You also need MU-MIMO capable clients to really see an improvement.

While in theory MU-MIMO is great, customers will suffer and have to play beta tester. The broadcom AC radio drivers are getting stable now. So the question is, are you looking for something that is go9ing to work or are you looking for something that looks nice on the paper.

By the way, Netgear markets their R7500 as MU-MIMO ready, that tells everything. Obviously too many problems to release it with MU-MIMO support.

If you do a lot of streaming at home, then the R8000 will help, as you can distribute the traffic among 3 radios.


You're welcome to your opinion, but that opinion isn't based on any facts. Read the reports from multiple reputable sources, one of which I quoted and linked to above, and it becomes painfully apparent the R8000 is simply a repackaged R7000 with an extra 5.2Ghz radio (possibly more complex algorithms to automatically route traffic to the appropriate radio) that will be obsolete by the end of this year when more advanced products are released. This isn't my opinion... this is an irrefutable fact. If you believe otherwise, please review the different articles written about the R8000 and how it doesn't measure up to the marketing Netgear has done.

Buying the R8000 is the equivalent of buying a Bose when someone wants a decent home theater setup...
it's a waste of money. <------ that is an opinion.
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<Kong>
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 4339
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:04    Post subject: Reply with quote
JW0914 wrote:

You're welcome to your opinion, but that opinion isn't based on any facts. Read the reports from multiple reputable sources, one of which I quoted and linked to above, and it becomes painfully apparent the R8000 is simply a repackaged R7000 with an extra 5.2Ghz radio (possibly more complex algorithms to automatically route traffic to the appropriate radio) that will be obsolete by the end of this year when more advanced products are released. This isn't my opinion... this is an irrefutable fact. If you believe otherwise, please review the different articles written about the R8000 and how it doesn't measure up to the marketing Netgear has done.

Buying the R8000 is the equivalent of buying a Bose when someone wants a decent home theater setup...
it's a waste of money. <------ that is an opinion.


Do these article writers write the firmware, do they fix the users bugs, do they help them with their problems? No, we developers do, so we know what works and what doesn't. We know the theory and the reality.

If you want to listen to article writers, that often write bullshit or present unrealistic benchmarks(I read a lot of bullshit which is wrong), that's fine with me.

The R8000 is here, we know based on the experience with the R7000, that the R8000 will be a good unit as it is based on the R7000. That's a fact!!!
So it doesn't introduce a lot of new stuff and that is the good news.

It is also a fact, that all new platforms need at least 6 month until their firmware/wireless driver works for the majority.

The price is something the customer influences, if no one buys it the price will drop by itself and it will come down to something affordable. As I said there are use cases where the R8000 is useful. At work I could use it, as we do lots of file transfering from mobile devices. It can happen that 10 devices download 10GB of data at the same time. Thus it would definitely be useful to us, to distribute the clients to different radio/bands.

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JW0914
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:16    Post subject: Reply with quote
<Kong> wrote:
JW0914 wrote:

You're welcome to your opinion, but that opinion isn't based on any facts. Read the reports from multiple reputable sources, one of which I quoted and linked to above, and it becomes painfully apparent the R8000 is simply a repackaged R7000 with an extra 5.2Ghz radio (possibly more complex algorithms to automatically route traffic to the appropriate radio) that will be obsolete by the end of this year when more advanced products are released. This isn't my opinion... this is an irrefutable fact. If you believe otherwise, please review the different articles written about the R8000 and how it doesn't measure up to the marketing Netgear has done.

Buying the R8000 is the equivalent of buying a Bose when someone wants a decent home theater setup...
it's a waste of money. <------ that is an opinion.


Do these article writers write the firmware, do they fix the users bugs, do they help them with their problems? No, we developers do, so we know what works and what doesn't. We know the theory and the reality.

If you want to listen to article writers, that often write bullshit or present unrealistic benchmarks(I read a lot of bullshit which is wrong), that's fine with me.

The R8000 is here, we know based on the experience with the R7000, that the R8000 will be a good unit as it is based on the R7000. That's a fact!!!
So it doesn't introduce a lot of new stuff and that is the good news.

It is also a fact, that all new platforms need at least 6 month until their firmware/wireless driver works for the majority.

The price is something the customer influences, if no one buys it the price will drop by itself and it will come down to something affordable. As I said there are use cases where the R8000 is useful. At work I could use it, as we do lots of file transfering from mobile devices. It can happen that 10 devices download 10GB of data at the same time. Thus it would definitely be useful to us, to distribute the clients to different radio/bands.


It seems we've gotten off on the wrong foot... I have a lot of respect for you as a developer and love your firmware for the R6300.

I'm not implying the R8000 isn't a good router... it is. My main problem with it is with the wording Netgear used [and still is using] to market it... wording that is meant to deceive, and in some cases, flat out wrong. Could many individuals [in your situation, for example] benefit from the extra 5.2Ghz radio, absolutely. Not only could it be used to get better speeds from mobile devices, but I assume one radio could be used exclusively for downloads and the other uploads.

My main issue with it is simply the wording use to market it, as not only is the only purpose of specific wording to deceive, other wording is flat out wrong. I've tried to reiterate this in my multiple posts, however it doesn't appear I've done a good job at articulating that, as it appears it was interpreted differently by yourself and others.

Other than the wording, my only other point is there are two routers, one with a qualcomm MU-MIMO 4x4 and and the other a Quantenna MU-MIMO 8x8, coming out within a few months that will render the R8000 obsolete. This doesn't mean the R8000 isn't an awesome router and will not be useful in certain applications, just that it's not a MU-MIMO router [even though Netgear would prefer consumers to believe that it is due to their deceptive advert wording) and in the long term, I believe it would be a waste of money to buy for $300 [or any amount] when that money would be much better spent within in a few months on an actual MU-MIMO router. I view this analytically and [to me at least] it would be like wanting to spend $3k on 55" TV and buying a 1080p, instead of spending an additional $500 to buy a 4k TV. While some may word that as future proofing, I simply view it as pro and con situation. If you're going to shell out a few hundred for a top of the line router, I don't see a plus side to shelling out for a router that will be surpassed by better technology inside of 4 months. If it was a year down the road, then [again, to me at least] I could see the rationale for buying it... but when this is $300 and true MU-MIMO routers released in a few months will be in the same price range, it just doesn't strike me as a good consumer decision.

With that being said, it doesn't make someone wrong for buying the R8000. I believe it would be not only hubristic, but ignorant and wrong, to think everyone sees this in the same analytical fashion that I do. Simply because I see this one way and someone else sees it another does not mean the other person is wrong.
Magnetron1.1
DD-WRT User


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 278
Location: North America

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 21:47    Post subject: Reply with quote
Received my new Netgear R8000 router 3 days ago; took some photos and disassembled to get access
to the serial port.

Links to photos:
R8K-Box-Front
R8K-Box-Rear
R8K-Top-View-Antennas-Folded-Down
R8K-Top-View-Antennas-Deployed
R8K-Top-View-Powered-On
R8K-Top-Bezel
R8K-Top-Case
R8K-Bottom-Case
R8K-Top-View-SystemPCB
R8K-Bottom-View-SystemPCB
R8K-SystemPCB-Connectors
R8K-Antennas
R8K-Top-View-SystemPCB-Without-Heatsink-And-EMI_Covers
R8K-Bottom-View-SystemPCB-Without-EMI_Covers
R8K-Close-Up-Broadcom_CPU_Area
R8K-Close-Up-Broadcom_BCM4709_CPU
R8K-Close-Up-Macronix_MX30LF1G08AA_1Gbit_NAND_Flash_Memory
R8K-Close-Up-Samsung_K4B2G1646Q_RAM
R8K-Close-Up-PlexTechnology_PEX8603_PCIe_Switch
R8K-Close-Up-Broadcom_BCM43602_5GHz_WLAN_SOC
R8K-Close-Up-Skyworks_SKY85710-11_5GHz_WLAN_FEM
R8K-Close-Up-Skyworks_SKY85309-11_2GHz_WLAN_FEM
R8K-Close-Up-Skyworks_SKY21857124_Unknown-Function

Useful information for Developers:

List of major ICs:
Broadcom BCM4709A0KFEBG CPU
Macronix MX30LF1G0BAA-TI 1Gbit/128MByte NAND Flash Memory
Samsung K4B2G1646Q-BCK0 2Gbit/256MByte DDR3 SDRAM Memory
Plex Technology PEX8603-AB50NIG PCIe 3 Lane 3 Port Switch
3x Broadcom BCM43602KMLG 5GHz/2GHz WLAN 3x3 MIMO 802.11AC PCIe Offload SoC
3x Skyworks SKY85710-11 5 GHz WLAN Front End Module
3x Skyworks SKY85309-11 2 GHz WLAN Front End Module
3x Skyworks SKY21857124 <<== Unable to determine function

System board ready for flashing:


Close-up view of serial port:


Netgear factory firmware boot-up sequence:
R8K_Bootup_Netgear_FW_V1.0.0.74_1.0.31.chk

Dump of first five flash memory partitions in Netgear factory firmware:
mtd0-boot
mtd1-nvram
mtd2-linux
mtd3-rootfs
mtd4-board_data

Used CFE Flash command to install DD-WRT Build 23598M. Firmware flashed ok and runs, but
USB, WAN, LAN, and Wi-Fi don't work. Probably a mismatch between the hardware and drivers or even lack of drivers.

Here's the boot-up sequence when using DD-WRT firmware:
R8K_BootupRunningR7K_DD-WRT_FW_Ver23598M

Used CFE Flash command to restore normal operation by flashing this special firmware:
DD-WRT-2-NetgearR8K_FW_V1.0.0.74_1.0.31.chk <<== Use the -noheader option with Flash command

I have since discovered that the standard, unmodified Netgear firmware can also be flashed by not using the -noheader option.

Helpful hint:

If attempting to restore Netgear firmware to the router and you experience connection time-outs such as this:
CFE> flash : nflash1.trx
Reading :: Failed.: Timeout occured
*** command status = -21

then clear nvram
CFE> nvram erase
*** command status = 0

and reboot to CFE prompt to fix connection.
CFE> reboot

Connectivity problem solved:
CFE> flash : nflash1.trx
Reading :: Done. 24465466 bytes read
Programming...done. 24465466 bytes written
*** command status = 0



Update1: Added close-up photos of major ICs and a list of major ICs.
Update2: Added more info to ICs list and deleted comment.
Update3: Added helpful hint and comments.


- Magnetron1.1


Last edited by Magnetron1.1 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 13:12; edited 4 times in total
ciris
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 15:26    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the teardown Magnetron
_________________
R8000 stock
WNDR3700v1 w/gargoyle
2 x WNDR3700v4 modded w/external attennas w/dd-wrt
TEW-673GRU w/dd-wrt
WNDR3300 w/dd-wrt
WNR3500_v2 w/dd-wrt mini
WRT350N_v1 modded w/WPCN600 card w/dd-wrt mega
Fractal
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1243

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 18:27    Post subject: Reply with quote
From what I see this is nearly identical to the R7000,
as far as specs, not drivers.

CPU: (2) Core 1000mhz
RAM: 256MB

Switch 10/100/1000
128MB Nand flash

Radio's were not properly detected so I couldnt see what they were, I will look closely at the picture, maybe can see the chip for the radios

-Fractal
slidermike
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 1487
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:45    Post subject: Reply with quote
ciris wrote:
Thanks for the teardown Magnetron


I second that Mag.

_________________
Router currently owned:
Netgear R7800 - Router
Netgear R7000 - AP mode

R7000 specific Tips/Tricks.
http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=264152
Magnetron1.1
DD-WRT User


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 278
Location: North America

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 17:20    Post subject: Reply with quote
@All

Added close-up photos of major ICs and a list of major ICs.
See my post above.

- Magnetron1.1
slidermike
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 1487
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 17:21    Post subject: Reply with quote
What is your initial thought on the stock firmware with the new router Mag?
_________________
Router currently owned:
Netgear R7800 - Router
Netgear R7000 - AP mode

R7000 specific Tips/Tricks.
http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=264152
JAMESMTL
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Joined: 13 Mar 2014
Posts: 856
Location: Montreal, QC

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 18:46    Post subject: Reply with quote
Magnetron1.1 wrote:

3x Broadcom BCM43602KMLG 5GHz WLAN 3x3 MIMO 802.11AC PCIe SOC <<== This surprised me. Was expecting only 2 instead of 3.

- Magnetron1.1


Was curious about this as Netgear's specs state

Powerful Dual-Core 1GHz processor with 3 offload processors

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Magnetron1.1
DD-WRT User


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 278
Location: North America

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 19:10    Post subject: Reply with quote
JAMESMTL wrote:
Magnetron1.1 wrote:

3x Broadcom BCM43602KMLG 5GHz WLAN 3x3 MIMO 802.11AC PCIe SOC <<== This surprised me. Was expecting only 2 instead of 3.

- Magnetron1.1


Was curious about this as Netgear's specs state

Powerful Dual-Core 1GHz processor with 3 offload processors


I was thinking that maybe the third offload processor would be a cheaper stripped down version. It appears there isn't one.

- Magnetron1.1
Magnetron1.1
DD-WRT User


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 278
Location: North America

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 21:16    Post subject: Reply with quote
slidermike wrote:
What is your initial thought on the stock firmware with the new router Mag?


The stock firmware is more than adequate for the average consumer if you like dealing with Netgear Genie. I really haven't spent much time using it in normal mode as I've been busy flashing firmwares, field stripping and photographing the router. Hope to get some performance data soon.

- Magnetron1.1
ciris
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:12    Post subject: Reply with quote
The router performs well (but in coming from an old WNDR3700) so my perspective may be skewed. In either case it's fast and the transfers wirelessly on the 5Ghz band to an attached usb3 hard drive is hella fast. I stopped trying to transfer large files wirelessly on my old WNDR3700 to an attached drive cause it was way too slow. It was quicker for me to plug it direct to my computer usb, transfer the files and connected to the router again. No longer the case with this one. Plus the Wi-Fi load balancing on the 5Ghz band works seamlessly. As noted by you guys and others else where. There are some quips here and there. One noted longer ping times, slightly slower speeds in some cases by (1-2mbps). I want to see small netbuilder review and take on this unit.
_________________
R8000 stock
WNDR3700v1 w/gargoyle
2 x WNDR3700v4 modded w/external attennas w/dd-wrt
TEW-673GRU w/dd-wrt
WNDR3300 w/dd-wrt
WNR3500_v2 w/dd-wrt mini
WRT350N_v1 modded w/WPCN600 card w/dd-wrt mega
GTnub
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:55    Post subject: Reply with quote
Magnetron1.1 wrote:
JAMESMTL wrote:
Magnetron1.1 wrote:

3x Broadcom BCM43602KMLG 5GHz WLAN 3x3 MIMO 802.11AC PCIe SOC <<== This surprised me. Was expecting only 2 instead of 3.

- Magnetron1.1


Was curious about this as Netgear's specs state

Powerful Dual-Core 1GHz processor with 3 offload processors


I was thinking that maybe the third offload processor would be a cheaper stripped down version. It appears there isn't one.

- Magnetron1.1


Nice pics Magnetron!!

The 43602 is the "successor" to the 4360, each 43602 has its own processor so that it can offload wifi specific processing from the host CPU. This is why Netgear uses the term 'penta-core', marketing gimmick really but they are just counting the dual-core 4709 + the three CPUs on the radios.
Magnetron1.1
DD-WRT User


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 278
Location: North America

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:57    Post subject: Reply with quote
@All

Added Update3 about firmware flashing to my post above.


-Magnetron1.1
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