Wireless Mesh with wired backhaul

Post new topic   Reply to topic    DD-WRT Forum Index -> General Questions
Author Message
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:18    Post subject: Wireless Mesh with wired backhaul Reply with quote
I've been reading about Wireless Distribution System, but I feel I'm not understanding the core basis.

I want to buy a couple of routers and put on them DD-WRT instead of just purchasing some already made Mesh system like TP-Link Deco or Linksys Velop.

Every single router will be connected to an ethernet rj45 socket, because the idea is to have a well balanced wireless network that permits both roaming and load balancing

From what I've read, WDS is not meant for load balancing, and in fact, WDS is meant to create a wireless network by only using wireless between most points except one that is wired. Something like a Wireless Mesh backhaul.

Not sure if there are a different alternative to WDS to accomplish what I'm looking for. Most Mesh systems have a ton of internal algorithms to calculate what is the most appropiate for the network, so I seriously doubt that DDWRT might have something to compare with this.

I researched about this like 5 or 6 years ago without success and I'm trying again to see if I see some light on this topic.
Sponsor
Alozaros
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 6410
Location: UK, London, just across the river..

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:14    Post subject: Reply with quote
-first have a good read/understanding on this https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Linking_Routers

-second if you can afford all routers to be connected via Ethernet than this is your best option
https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_access_point
--bear in mind all WiFi AP must have a different SSID (name)

-if you choose WDS way, than its better if all units are from the same vendor (Atheros) it could be Atheros-Qualcom too..as it's basically the same

you will get the best performance with WAP...
if you choose WAP instead of WDS, use this guide to set WAP (although the one above will work too)


set a getaway WAP..instead of router mode WAP (egc way)

I setup a WAP like this:
A WAP is a secondary router connected wired LAN<>LAN on the same subnet as the primary router.
Setup:
• On Basic Setup page:
o WAN disabled
o DHCP server Disabled (=off and NOT set as Forwarder!)
o Local IP address in subnet of primary router but outside DHCP scope, make sure the used IP address is unique on your network you cannot have duplicates.
o Gateway and Local DNS pointing to primary router (Basic Setup>Network Setup)
• Keep DNSMasq enabled (both on Basic Setup page and Services page)
• On Setup > Advanced Routing, keep Operating mode in the default Gateway (the wiki says Router mode but do not do that, either it does not matter (this case) or break things)
• On Security > Firewall keep the SPI Firewall enabled, although you do not want a firewall it will be automatically disabled as there is no WAN so no need to change this setting form default.
• Connect LAN <> LAN (do not use the WAN port unless you really need that extra port, for most routers traffic still must use the CPU so performance is lacklustre and there are some routers where the WAN port is not added to the br0 so the WAN port could be non-functional on some routers).

Note:Only For Broadcom routers for best throughput enable CTF on Basic Setup Page
Note:On Atheros units i disable Basic Setup>Optional Settings>Shortcut Forwarding Engine (alozaros way)

In the web-interface of the router (the WAP): Administration > Commands save Firewall:
Code:
iptables -t nat -I POSTROUTING -o br0 -j SNAT --to $(nvram get lan_ipaddr)

_________________
Atheros
TP-Link WR740Nv1 ---DD-WRT 55179 WAP
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -DD-WRT 55303 Gateway/DoT,Forced DNS,Ad-Block,Firewall,x4VLAN,VPN
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -Gargoyle OS 1.15.x AP,DNS,QoS,Quotas
Qualcomm-Atheros
Netgear XR500 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoH,Forced DNS,AP Isolation,4VLAN,Ad-Block,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R7800 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,Forced DNS,AP&Net Isolation,x3VLAN,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R9000 --DD-WRT 55363 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,AP Isolation,Firewall,Forced DNS,x2VLAN,Vanilla
Broadcom
Netgear R7000 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/SmartDNS/DoH,AD-Block,Firewall,Forced DNS,x3VLAN,VPN
NOT USING 5Ghz ANYWHERE
------------------------------------------------------
Stubby DNS over TLS I DNSCrypt v2 by mac913
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:25    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alozaros wrote:
-first have a good read/understanding on this https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Linking_Routers

-second if you can afford all routers to be connected via Ethernet than this is your best option
https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_access_point
--bear in mind all WiFi AP must have a different SSID (name)

-if you choose WDS way, than its better if all units are from the same vendor (Atheros) it could be Atheros-Qualcom too..as it's basically the same


Now it came to my mind, I got to the same conclusion some years ago, but WAP doesn't convince me. It can do fine roaming wise, but it doesn't load balance at all. But I believe that WDS won't balance either, so there are no balancing methods around, which is my main concern and why I started looking on those shitty chinese Mesh systems with poor load balancing algorithms implemented on their firmwares.

The big problem here is that this is a 3-story house. The routers in the middle floor, will collapse, because most devices will be trying to connect to them, since they are the ones in the middle, while the ones in the top and the bottom, will be almost free, unless there is some sort of mechanism that monitors this and "balance" the load.

But I'm assuming that neither of the methods will solve this caveat.

I'm thinking that maybe I should be considering something greater like Omada or Unifi, and these is why those Home Automation pros have it. When you go over 100 devices in your home, things start to cripple a lot, because when suddenly 50 of them are connecting to just one node, unless it is high end like a Nighthawk, they obliterate it.
egc
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 12837
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:46    Post subject: Reply with quote
That assumes a central management unit which is not present on SoHo routers.
Atheros chipset have Fast roaming, furthermore you can play with cut-off of low signal levels and associate your clients on a fixed location to a specific AP.

But what you want with a central management and load balancing between nodes you need professional equipment.

_________________
Routers:Netgear R7000, R6400v1, R6400v2, EA6900 (XvortexCFE), E2000, E1200v1, WRT54GS v1.
Install guide R6400v2, R6700v3,XR300:https://forum.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=316399
Install guide R7800/XR500: https://forum.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=320614
Forum Guide Lines (important read):https://forum.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=324087
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:55    Post subject: Reply with quote
egc wrote:
But what you want with a central management and load balancing between nodes you need professional equipment.


I will consider so because as you say, all are fixed, so roaming is not really needed. But what is 100% important, is that there is some kind of failover, in case one node goes down, all devices in that node, move to another the best they can.

How can I associate the clients manually? And in case I associate them manually, what happens in the node associated drops?
Alozaros
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 6410
Location: UK, London, just across the river..

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:58    Post subject: Reply with quote
well.. i ve 2 story house with solid concrete layers between the floors and have only one router
Netgear R7800 where 2,4Ghz radio with its current settings works as intended and have cover everywhere..
while at my student accommodation we have also R7800 and serves 4 story house with soild concrete and unit is in the middle, also it has an extra switch and x2 extra routers, to manage the network requirements..all alone R7800 sees about 40-50 wifi(2,4Ghz) devices daily, sometimes even more and has very heavy use/load...no problems at all..touch wood.. Laughing
And R9000 which is im my office (2.4Ghz radio only), there it sees lots of heavy load/use on its radio(mainly) and wired LAN, the office is huge and its placed in 6 story building, where i can see the signal even outside in the nearby coffee Razz...so, yep those units have a good wifi range..
and especially R9000 can handle a lot...its radio has been used in many presentations where sometimes we have up to 100 clients (not always)..the main reason i got it... Razz (sadly R9000 comes with some special needs)

Load balancing you can do with QoS on the main unit (lets say R7800), where you can make vlan's for each LAN port and set QoS and so on..
To be hones ive never used QoS and all client can use the network with no problems even on heavy torrenting... at home...

_________________
Atheros
TP-Link WR740Nv1 ---DD-WRT 55179 WAP
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -DD-WRT 55303 Gateway/DoT,Forced DNS,Ad-Block,Firewall,x4VLAN,VPN
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -Gargoyle OS 1.15.x AP,DNS,QoS,Quotas
Qualcomm-Atheros
Netgear XR500 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoH,Forced DNS,AP Isolation,4VLAN,Ad-Block,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R7800 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,Forced DNS,AP&Net Isolation,x3VLAN,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R9000 --DD-WRT 55363 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,AP Isolation,Firewall,Forced DNS,x2VLAN,Vanilla
Broadcom
Netgear R7000 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/SmartDNS/DoH,AD-Block,Firewall,Forced DNS,x3VLAN,VPN
NOT USING 5Ghz ANYWHERE
------------------------------------------------------
Stubby DNS over TLS I DNSCrypt v2 by mac913


Last edited by Alozaros on Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:27; edited 1 time in total
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:05    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alozaros wrote:

Load balancing you can do with QoS on the main unit (lets say R7800), where you can make vlan's for each LAN port and set QoS and so on..
To be hones ive never used QoS and all client can use the network with no problems even on heavy torrenting... at home...


I'm not talking about packet Load balancing, but device load balancing (the number of devices connected to one router)

I could have also tried with a pair of high end $200 routers that may probably support 50-60 devices without hassle under their belt, but bare in mind, I've currently only invested $150 in a set of 6 Tenda Nova Mesh, which is obnoxious in price, and obviously, not working as intended. Still I was digging in DD-WRT because I was planning on purchasing 5 or 6 TP-Link TL-WR940N V6 ($20 each for a total of $120), and try setting them all over the place (I have ethernet ports for all of them, kind of paradoxical, that the ethernet ports costed me more than the routers themselves).
Alozaros
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 6410
Location: UK, London, just across the river..

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:31    Post subject: Reply with quote
yep you can choose max wifi clients and max dhcp clients via GUI settings..

TP-link TL-WR940N V6 may not be the best choice...but it could work as a WAP no problem..
cheap is not always good Rolling Eyes

_________________
Atheros
TP-Link WR740Nv1 ---DD-WRT 55179 WAP
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -DD-WRT 55303 Gateway/DoT,Forced DNS,Ad-Block,Firewall,x4VLAN,VPN
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -Gargoyle OS 1.15.x AP,DNS,QoS,Quotas
Qualcomm-Atheros
Netgear XR500 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoH,Forced DNS,AP Isolation,4VLAN,Ad-Block,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R7800 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,Forced DNS,AP&Net Isolation,x3VLAN,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R9000 --DD-WRT 55363 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,AP Isolation,Firewall,Forced DNS,x2VLAN,Vanilla
Broadcom
Netgear R7000 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/SmartDNS/DoH,AD-Block,Firewall,Forced DNS,x3VLAN,VPN
NOT USING 5Ghz ANYWHERE
------------------------------------------------------
Stubby DNS over TLS I DNSCrypt v2 by mac913
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alozaros wrote:
yep you can choose max wifi clients and max dhcp clients via GUI settings..

TP-link TL-WR940N V6 may not be the best choice...but it could work as a WAP no problem..
cheap is not always good Rolling Eyes


Cheap is almost never good, but my budget is really tight
In case I would like to increase the budget, I think I would go with Omada straight away. Much more comfortable solution, with barely $100 of the OC200 + $40 per AP. And the best thing is that it is scalable to each single ethernet socket in my site for an extremely good wifi coverage.

While moving with WAP will literally have to be having a huge manual work behind, having always to be finetuning for each single device that comes in and out. And we all know that there are times that we live in autopilot and have nothhing but time to spend on micromanagements like this. So I would choose a very budget option like WR940 just because of budget, not because of real quality. Just a couple of nodes I would say (probably I will stick with 4) and thinking on the future to most likely move to Omada. I should have bought it from the beginning but I did not know of its existence Razz
inetquestion
DD-WRT User


Joined: 24 Sep 2015
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 22:12    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Alozaros"]--bear in mind all WiFi AP must have a different SSID (name) [/quote]

Is this accurate? Mine all have the same ssid, but are on different channels. When they were all using different SSID's, performance was horrible during hand-off from one to the next. Corporate networks with many AP's often all use the same SSID across entire campuses.

Where you say 'must', doesn't seem like a good idea to do at all.
Open to additional clarification...


[quote="https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_access_point"]
If you are installing additional Access Points to cover a broader area with Wi-Fi access, it is possible to allow clients to roam freely between them. The common method is to use the same SSID and Security settings on each access point. The clients control when to switch in between APs. Most clients will switch when they see a more powerful AP available but some client radios are not able to listen for a new AP when connected to an existing AP and as a result those clients will not roam to the new AP until they completely lose signal from the old one.[/quote]
Alozaros
DD-WRT Guru


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 6410
Location: UK, London, just across the river..

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 22:53    Post subject: Reply with quote
inetquestion it depends from lots of things and corporate AP do not always use 3rd party firmware..

The one i set in the past for a friends hotel (for free) I was heaving roaming issues, with the same SSID WAP...and those ware few TP-link 740v4 (second hand)... once i changed the name it was performing well as expected...if im not wrong those guys still use it..probb not even with updated firmware's..
Talking back to 2017-18..no idea how its performing now lots of changes since then..as well remember it was the same password and different channels/names like 1,6,11 wi-fi 1, 2, 3...

So, whatever works best...! Cool

_________________
Atheros
TP-Link WR740Nv1 ---DD-WRT 55179 WAP
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -DD-WRT 55303 Gateway/DoT,Forced DNS,Ad-Block,Firewall,x4VLAN,VPN
TP-Link WR1043NDv2 -Gargoyle OS 1.15.x AP,DNS,QoS,Quotas
Qualcomm-Atheros
Netgear XR500 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoH,Forced DNS,AP Isolation,4VLAN,Ad-Block,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R7800 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,Forced DNS,AP&Net Isolation,x3VLAN,Firewall,Vanilla
Netgear R9000 --DD-WRT 55363 Gateway/DoT,AD-Block,AP Isolation,Firewall,Forced DNS,x2VLAN,Vanilla
Broadcom
Netgear R7000 --DD-WRT 55460 Gateway/SmartDNS/DoH,AD-Block,Firewall,Forced DNS,x3VLAN,VPN
NOT USING 5Ghz ANYWHERE
------------------------------------------------------
Stubby DNS over TLS I DNSCrypt v2 by mac913
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:59    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've been doing a ton of extra research to see main issues of this kind of cheapo routers to set a good WAP with dd-wrt or even openwrt: the 4/32 limitation which is massive

I've also discovered DAWN but it doesn't seems to be a similar equivalent to DD-WRT
https://github.com/berlin-open-wireless-lab/DAWN

Basically with a well performing router (16/128 at least), that supports a good variety of 802.11 protocols (k/r/v) this seems to be basically the solution I was looking for.

But since I've always been a user of DD-WRT and I have no experience with OpenWRT I was wondering if there is an equivalent solution for such.
SirLouen
DD-WRT Novice


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:31    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've pulled out all my routers and removed that shitty Wifi mesh
Not all my routers supported DD-WRT so I had to do a combination of DD-WRT with OpenWRT

Out of the box all my DDWRT had this "Drop Clients with Low Signal" feature in the GUI
https://forum.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1281074#1281074

So I setup -75dB for such

In OpenWRT I had to do a little more tweaking because my omega limited 4/32 routers (TP-Link TL-WR841N V14) did not have all the modules compiled, so I had to create a recompiled image to support this "Dropping feature".

Now all my SSID are the same, and any client will drop or never connect if the RSSI is under -75dB. I could even set this at -70dB but I've noticed some clients don't have a better option and they could be left out at certain weird atmospheric conditions if the go beyond that -70dB mark (and I cannot find a better place to set a Wifi AP near them).

Have to say that it is working like a charm with the AP I had in the storage room (only one a little bit more recent, D-LINK DIR882).

Maybe I will omit the purchase of Omada equipment for a while. Lets see for a week how this setup behaves.
Display posts from previous:    Page 1 of 1
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DD-WRT Forum Index -> General Questions All times are GMT

Navigation

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum