Not getting full speeds on 5GHz

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tedm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 18:05    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gameman Advanced Kid wrote:


This is irelavent.

He is talking about trying to get 200mbps on the 5ghz band. Not 2.4ghz.

There is plenty of space on 5ghz. 2.4ghz should be used as a secondary radio nowadays anyway.

EDIT:Also, if anyone had looked at the channel the OP is using, they would have already known that he is using 5ghz.


No it is not irrelevant and yes I knew he was on 5Ghz and everything I said applies to 5Ghz also.

Not yet 2 days ago I was testing on a r7000 and "auto" on 5Ghz set the 5Ghz channel up right on top of another 5Ghz wifi AP that was advertising. And it wasn't exactly on top either it was disjoint. This was with gobs of other completely unused spectrum available on the 5Ghz band.

I think the idea some people have is "auto" causes the AP radio to seek out the best band, that is the band that no other wifi AP is using. But in the real world not in this fantasy of how things are supposed to work, in the world of how things ACTUALLY work, "auto" basically tells the wifi radio to do whatever the heck it wants to do, and what it often wants to do is the stupid thing.
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the-joker
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 19:01    Post subject: Reply with quote
And this is why we never recommend Auto anything channel wise (not one single post I read on these boards recommends auto channel it may exist and its a stupid recommendation in said cases). And some time ago we (I) started suggesting people use https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vrem.wifianalyzer to check how their environmental affects the channels and whatever else in their search for best channel to use.
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ddwrt_user_42
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 19:37    Post subject: My Tests Reply with quote
I'm not sure if you guys read my 2nd post correctly.

When I pick any channel on the 5Ghz Wi-Fi frequency band (channel width 20mhz), I don't get my full internet speeds. I only get my full internet speeds when I set the channel to auto and auto always selects channel 52.


Username: blkt
Quote:
Auto channel ignores channel width settings, so either set width, channel and extension properly or just use Auto.


Is there a source to confirm this statement?
dale_gribble39
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 19:48    Post subject: Reply with quote
What were the results on 5GHz band with 40MHz or 80MHz channel selected?
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blkt
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 21:25    Post subject: Reply with quote
blkt wrote:
Auto channel ignores channel width settings, so either set width, channel and extension properly or just use Auto.
ddwrt_user_42 wrote:
Is there a source to confirm this statement?
Source is your very own R7000 speed test results a ~269 Mbps transfer speed clearly indicates 40 MHz channel width.
Ignore anything about irrelevant link rates, if reading anything about nonsense divide by two for realistic expectations.

Please read as referenced in Basic Wireless Settings Broadcom extension selections Upper & Lower should be inverted.
See "BCM-confirmed" and "Valid VHT80 channels" examples as a 40 MHz guideline (read UU or UL as U, LU or LL as L).

However I'm making lots of assumptions about wireless basic, advanced settings and client capabilities (1x1/2x2/3x3).
It is best to keep it simple for now. Since Auto always picks 52 use this channel as reference for manual settings tests.

What I mean to say is 40 MHz channel width choose 52 Upper (select Lower) or 80 MHz choose 52+UU (select 52+LL).
Then you can compare the results to previous tests without going into the gritty details about wireless understandings.
ddwrt_user_42
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:46    Post subject: Thanks! Reply with quote
I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic!

You guys have gave me a better understanding of WI-FI bands.

Thanks again Cool
Gameman Advanced Kid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:22    Post subject: Reply with quote
tedm wrote:
Gameman Advanced Kid wrote:


This is irelavent.

He is talking about trying to get 200mbps on the 5ghz band. Not 2.4ghz.

There is plenty of space on 5ghz. 2.4ghz should be used as a secondary radio nowadays anyway.

EDIT:Also, if anyone had looked at the channel the OP is using, they would have already known that he is using 5ghz.


No it is not irrelevant and yes I knew he was on 5Ghz and everything I said applies to 5Ghz also.

Not yet 2 days ago I was testing on a r7000 and "auto" on 5Ghz set the 5Ghz channel up right on top of another 5Ghz wifi AP that was advertising. And it wasn't exactly on top either it was disjoint. This was with gobs of other completely unused spectrum available on the 5Ghz band.

I think the idea some people have is "auto" causes the AP radio to seek out the best band, that is the band that no other wifi AP is using. But in the real world not in this fantasy of how things are supposed to work, in the world of how things ACTUALLY work, "auto" basically tells the wifi radio to do whatever the heck it wants to do, and what it often wants to do is the stupid thing.


"auto" is the router scanning the area and finding whats the best channel to use. Otherwise, it would not be there. In fact, if the router truly did the opposite of what I just said it does, may as well pull it then and have everyone set their frequency to manually!

And where exactly was the interference coming from? if the router showed something like -87, I honestly would not worry about it.

WiFi analyzer apps are only useful for 2.4ghz. If its 5ghz, then it most likely may be in an area where this is TONS of 5ghz interference. otherwise, its a waste of time and energy to wave your phone around while the WiFi analyzer app spams advertisements at you until you actually buy the app itself.

No, you did not know he was using 5ghz because at the end of your post you said this

tedm wrote:
When possible for highest throughput use 5Ghz, and set the channels you use to ones that nobody else is using, run 80Mhz channel widths, and move the AP as close as you can to your wifi client. You should have 5 bars on your client for best throughput.

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the-joker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:10    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ontopic, you also want to play with airtime fairness (understand what it does to the signal -- google it) and keep TPC mitigation factor off as its default, unless you live in the airport right next to a relevant radar (there are a dozen or more radar types if youre interested you can google that too).

You also may consider your clients capabilities and in addition look at Implicit/explicit Beamforming also.

Re: TPC Mitigation; I live near a military airbase, less than 800 meters away as the crow flies, and even blasting at max 1 watt on the radios and TPC mitigation OFF, at the distance I am from the radars they have around it doesn't affect them not even when using the same frequency ranges and its irrelevant as their radar types around are military (and several different types) and thus not susceptible to interference for POS consumer router.

Semi offtopic

Gameman Advanced Kid wrote:
WiFi analyzer apps are only useful for 2.4ghz. If its 5ghz, then it most likely may be in an area where this is TONS of 5ghz interference. otherwise, its a waste of time and energy to wave your phone around while the WiFi analyzer app spams advertisements at you until you actually buy the app itself.

You dont know every users environmental factors, its impossible unless the user knows whats going on around them.

The wifi analyzer I recommend, is good, opensource (so you can audit the code), does not collect ANY data and is free as in free beer.

Ultimately getting to know your specific environment to pick the best channel when you are surrounded by wireless networks is NOT a waste of time, to simply see what the environment is like, how the signal travels around the house and how much is lost and where are the areas that have poor reception is not a good practice to plan your network and is like you say a waste of time, well maybe for you. I think its time well spent in order to make informed decisions for best result and good network planning for the average lay person.

And in that process less experienced people hopefully get to move up 1 level and gain knowledge/understanding.

Its a waste of time only if you have that much experience and are a professional. we are talking about regular users here, else they would not come here and ask questions..

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Last edited by the-joker on Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:45; edited 1 time in total
ho1Aetoo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:36    Post subject: Reply with quote
Auto-Channel makes a short channel analysis and selects a channel with less activity and good quality.
However, it does not have to be the best channel because, as I said, it is only a very short analysis.
and what is good in one moment can be bad 10min later

moreover, auto-channel does not take into account the clients' requirements
There are clients that do not support all channels.
For example, there are firetv sticks that are not DFS certified and only support the lower channels.
If you have such clients then you can't use auto-channel because auto-channel can also select channels that are not supported by the clients.

there are also routers where auto-channel sometimes is stuck and the radio does not start

Therefore, here in the forum is the general consensus that if possible no auto-channel is to use.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:37    Post subject: Reply with quote
ho1Aetoo wrote:
Auto-Channel makes a short channel analysis and selects a channel with less activity and good quality. However, it does not have to be the best channel because, as I said, it is only a very short analysis. and what is good in one moment can be bad 10min later

moreover, auto-channel does not take into account the clients' requirements There are clients that do not support all channels.

If auto-channel could show a report of its analysis in the system log, it would be more useful. Right now, you don't even whether if there was any channel analysis... Smile

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ho1Aetoo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:47    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does it, maybe not on your Broadcom router but us Atheros users have the luxury.

Code:
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5660 qual:97 noise:-105 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5220 qual:97 noise:-108 eirp: 23
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5700 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5680 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5640 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5600 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5580 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5560 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5540 qual:96 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5620 qual:95 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5240 qual:95 noise:-108 eirp: 23
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5200 qual:95 noise:-108 eirp: 23
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5500 qual:94 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5320 qual:94 noise:-108 eirp: 20
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5300 qual:94 noise:-108 eirp: 20
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5260 qual:94 noise:-108 eirp: 20
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5180 qual:94 noise:-107 eirp: 23
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5520 qual:93 noise:-104 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5280 qual:93 noise:-107 eirp: 20
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5865 qual:86 noise:-107 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5845 qual:86 noise:-107 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5825 qual:84 noise:-105 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5805 qual:84 noise:-105 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5785 qual:84 noise:-105 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5765 qual:84 noise:-105 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5745 qual:83 noise:-104 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5720 qual:83 noise:-104 eirp: 13
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5660 VHT80 [UU] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5220 VHT80 [LU] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5700 VHT80 [LU] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5680 VHT80 [UL] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5640 VHT80 [LL] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5600 VHT80 [UL] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5580 VHT80 [UU] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5560 VHT80 [LL] quality 94
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5540 VHT80 [LU] quality 94
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5620 VHT80 [LU] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5240 VHT80 [LL] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5200 VHT80 [UL] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5500 VHT80 [UU] quality 94
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5320 VHT80 [LL] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5300 VHT80 [LU] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5260 VHT80 [UU] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5180 VHT80 [UU] quality 95
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5520 VHT80 [UL] quality 94
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5280 VHT80 [UL] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5805 VHT80 [LL] quality 83
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5785 VHT80 [LU] quality 83
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5765 VHT80 [UL] quality 83
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5745 VHT80 [UU] quality 83
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq: 5720 VHT80 [LL] quality 93
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: selected: 5180
mwchang
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:55    Post subject: Reply with quote
ho1Aetoo wrote:
Does it, maybe not on your Broadcom router but us Atheros users have the luxury.

Code:
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5660 qual:97 noise:-105 eirp: 26
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: freq:5220 qual:97 noise:-108 eirp: 23
...
Nov 3 13:44:33 DD-WRT user.info : [autochannel] : wlan0: selected: 5180

How did your Atheros do that?

I switched from specific channel to "Auto" in Wireless->Basic Settings->Channel, hit "Apply", no such entries in system log. After a while, the following entry was found. No quality and noise results.
Code:
~# grep -i nnel /var/log/messages
Nov  3 20:53:16 rt-n18u kern.warn kernel: [ 4059.607749] COEX: downgraded chanspec 0x1803 to 0x1001: ctrl channel: 1 existing ext. channel

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Last edited by mwchang on Thu Nov 03, 2022 13:00; edited 2 times in total
ho1Aetoo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:57    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just activate auto-channel, it will be written in the syslog (for Atheros)
Gameman Advanced Kid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 17:52    Post subject: Reply with quote
the-joker wrote:
Gameman Advanced Kid wrote:
WiFi analyzer apps are only useful for 2.4ghz. If its 5ghz, then it most likely may be in an area where this is TONS of 5ghz interference. otherwise, its a waste of time and energy to wave your phone around while the WiFi analyzer app spams advertisements at you until you actually buy the app itself.

You dont know every users environmental factors, its impossible unless the user knows whats going on around them.


I believe that after installing internet connections at customers houses for about 3+ years, I think its safe to say that I already have a good idea of whats going on at the customers house. I never bothered having to set the channel manually because I always got max capacity and good latency.

The only manual change I did make was channel width. But what was on rare occasions. Some devices in the customers house prefer working with 40mhz channel width instead of 80mhz. even when the device was up close, it still will not want to connect to the 5ghz radio running in 80mhz channel width. I meant, it was the customers iphone that had issues with 80mhz channel width, but I am still going to use the word "devices" here. I only recall witnessing this sort of thing twice though hence why I say "on rare occasions"

ho1Aetoo wrote:
Auto-Channel makes a short channel analysis and selects a channel with less activity and good quality.
However, it does not have to be the best channel because, as I said, it is only a very short analysis.
and what is good in one moment can be bad 10min later

moreover, auto-channel does not take into account the clients' requirements
There are clients that do not support all channels.
For example, there are firetv sticks that are not DFS certified and only support the lower channels.
If you have such clients then you can't use auto-channel because auto-channel can also select channels that are not supported by the clients.

there are also routers where auto-channel sometimes is stuck and the radio does not start

Therefore, here in the forum is the general consensus that if possible no auto-channel is to use.


If you are referring to external 5ghz interference then the same will go for manually setting the channel.

I have told my customers that if a device in their network does not want to connect to the 5ghz radio, have it connect to 2.4ghz instead. In much simpler terms for the customers sake. And it would make sense to do that given that it may be a streaming device like a roku or fire stick that cannot consume more than 100mbps anyway. For devices that can, it would be a nintendo switch, your high end PC, high end laptop and so on.

only on consumer routers running factory stock firmware or mikrotik, I never had auto-channel hang on me. dd-wrt would probably be the only firmware I know of that would have these issues. However, I never really seen it since I do NOT and NEVER WILL install dd-wrt routers at customers houses unless otherwise specified nor have I seen that happen at my house.

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the-joker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:19    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Gameman Advanced Kid

Yes you are an installer with experience, regular users that are not and come here for help, will benefit from tools such as that to make better decisions.

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