R9000 10G Port

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Laithan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 0:03    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok this test is the "best" case scenario as I had the air conditioner running and there was a cool breeze of 68F(20C) in the room. Running only for a few minutes and only @ 1Gbps with mostly nothing going on the max temp I read on the shield was 133.4F (56.3C)...

<abort>

As I removed the CAT 6 cable it was also hot. I probed inside the RJ45 socket and it was reading 115F(46C) and this reading was after I pulled it from the R9000 and had been sitting for 15 seconds.

With no A/C on a hot day I would expect 150F(66C) easy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 13:15    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is pretty hot indeed, but nowhere near catching fire hot (more like 300F, depending on materials). Still of some major concern for sure. I had been kicking around getting a R9000 to play around with, but may reconsider after reading this thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 13:34    Post subject: Reply with quote
And so, no one has considered improving the non existing thermal solution on the SFP port... Good to know.

I think 56C is too much, consider that copper is a great heat conductor and the CAT6 whatever cable cores are only made of this matterial/stranded solid + the RJ45 pins being gold plated helps conductivity, OK copper can handle a lot more than 56C (Sorry I dont do Fahrenheit unless I'm doing a karaoke of this), I wouldn't just plug any old Cat 6 cable in there, anything less than 6a / 8a where the cables are well insulated and separated but this could also be too insulated and dissipation being a problem over long term usage.

A good cable designed for higher temperatures and not just your bog standard plugged in for long term usage. 56C not a lot, but...

To me only one good thing is to improve the lack of thermal solution.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 17:50    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unfortunately, poor thermal design is relatively common. Especially in routers, switches and laptops. Sometimes it pretty easy to self re-design them to make it much better, but most of the time we're just totally screwed. Looking at several photos of the R9000, especially the SFP+ port, would be difficult for sure, but not impossible. It would take some pretty tiny fans, and they may not be efficient enough to get the job done. It's easy to blow around the hot air internally (which does nothing), but getting it out can sometimes be tricky without cutting lots of holes in the plastic.

Ultimately heat will destroy these devices over time, and the manufacturers know this. It's probably partly intentional to under-design these things. They need to keep selling you new routers, switches and laptops.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 18:30    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its not partially intentional its fully intentional, it is called planned obsolesce its a real shameless tactic.

Its not an easy job and not for the average tinkerer, but the cases by default have plenty airflow holes just finding how much tolerance they have inside them and planning a solution accordingly.

If this image is accurate there is a pretty easy solution, the SFP port is likely just about touching those heatsinks, and these are while one can see that the fan is suppose to blow the air around those groves, it ends up being in the direction of the SFP port.

https://images.app.goo.gl/g1BrtH7WnRnbEQr39

Depending on clearance there are heatsinks that would go ontop of the SFP ports shielding and then a slightly bigger fan and these days they make decent frameless fans, IDK why they went with a traditional framed fan and with that heatsink design, makes no sense, a framless fan would have no such restrictions and would likely perform better as the frame around the blades is just crap for that heatsink design.

Depends on tolerances really, but while at it I would rip all those heatsinks out and spend a little on a better thermal compound.

That is, if it were me and I could afford it, but depends on tolerances, so research needed by an owner. Im a bit broke ATM but one day I'll buy one just for this reason, wouldn't be half difficult to get a custom heatsink on this either that would do a better job either.

I would also look into GPU cooling fans/heatsking combos to replace the lot, for a pre made solution.

The default heatsink doesnt have enough fins and the ones it has are just too big and too far apart, otherwise its a semi decent idea, but as is reminds me of a George Foreman grill. And then stupid hit the wall and they decided to have the other heatsink which looks to be a separate unit altogether so broke the thermal effectiveness of the whole heatsink mass. Yea, looking at it, I think it would do fine as a grill for my next steak dinner.

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Laithan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 0:44    Post subject: Reply with quote
the-joker wrote:
If this image is accurate there is a pretty easy solution, the SFP port is likely just about touching those heatsinks, and these are while one can see that the fan is suppose to blow the air around those groves, it ends up being in the direction of the SFP port.

IDK why they went with a traditional framed fan and with that heatsink design, makes no sense, a framless fan would have no such restrictions and would likely perform better as the frame around the blades is just crap for that heatsink design.

Yea, looking at it, I think it would do fine as a grill for my next steak dinner.


Too funny.. it really does have George Foreman grill vibes. Well you can SEAR your steak on the SFP and then grill it on the heat sync lmao.

I noticed that the transceiver also sticks out a solid inch+ (25.4mm) outside the case and that was where I was measuring the heat. I wonder if it is even hotter inside the internal SFP. That SFP port takes up a another 3" inside (76mm). If heat syncs were applied, they would likely need to be applied to both the internal SFP shield and the SFP->RJ45 transceiver and after looking at the picture and also my own R9000, the internal heat syncs would have to be quite small. Would this even remove enough heat? I think an internal fan mod with external USB fan(s) would be needed but then again, is the internal shield we are putting sync making direct contact with the SFP?

As you point out the frame on that fan, it REALLY is a dumb design.


Last edited by Laithan on Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32; edited 2 times in total
Laithan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:14    Post subject: Reply with quote
I assume most are designed the same or similar to the pic I found below of the internals. Air gaps between the controller and the metal. Questioning how effective heat syncs could be. Despite the slide claiming better cooling, I don't see the implementation. Little hot boxes...

[FLYPROFiber 10GBase-T SFP+ to RJ45 10G Copper Module]

According to the amazon comments, this runs at "40C" which is considerably lower than my 10GTek.. but could be BS and run just as hot. It has me thinking though, I wonder how much variance one brand to the other might have. I am tempted to order this one to compare temps. Maybe there is an even cooler running one? Have to look around more.

EDIT: According to STH, this one uses less power and they seem to like it. I ordered one so we'll see if it is much cooler or not. [Wiitek SFP-10G-T SFP+ to RJ45 10GBase-T ]


Last edited by Laithan on Fri Jul 01, 2022 16:15; edited 1 time in total
dale_gribble39
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:52    Post subject: Reply with quote
The fan should draw air out of the case...
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the-joker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:12    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Laithan What the module says maybe correct about temperatures but they dont account for the thermal design or lack thereof in small home consumer devices.

Normally on non SOHO rack/standalone switches/routers, these have more clearance around the ports the cases are taller not to mention more ventilation on cases themeselfs and better bigger fans inside, makes a difference even if these SFP ports dont have heatsinks.

As for if a fan should push or pull depends, my router (vertical design) has two external USB fans, one pulls one pushes. PC wise the same, the front fans push cold air in, the back fans pull hot air out, if you have fans on top of case they should be pulling hot air out not pushing cold air in (hot air rises right you would be pushing that hot air down again, where cold air sinks naturally) so the back fans will be smaller and not effective enough to pull all the hot air out resulting in higher temperatures inside case.

In a small crowded case like the R9000 this is made worse, because its horizontal design, the hot air generated under the motherboard needs to travel horizontally to the edges in order to go up as it does naturally, then meets more hot air being pushed outwards by the heatsink design and because that has more pressure due to the fan, that air coming from the bottom is semi trapped and 1/2 degrees become 3/4 over time since its not an effective design. The SFP port heat travels up and is immediatly trapped because the top of the case is solid above it and the fan because its framed isnt efficient enough to push the air outwards since a percentage of that air pressure is blocked by the fan's frame.

So a standing router design where motherboard is vertical is more effective that a horizontal one, since hot air generated from both motherboard sides will travel vertically without meeting so many obstructions, but then this needs a different heatsink design and IMO frameless fans are more effective in small enclosed spaces as well as adequate ventilation holes on top of case.

Fans should help the natural flow of hot/cold air not fight against this. Heatsinks pull heat out form the chips they are in contact with, so the heatsink needs to be cooled fast, this only happens when many small thin fins to dissipate that hot air in the blocks mass (and not George Formeman few and large fins bullshit) are being blasted with cold air being pushed through, like a radiator works in a car (a semi bad design cause hot air goes up and there's the bonnet obstruction the normal hot air flow wanting to go UP and the exaust to this hot air is out near the windscreen where some turbulence is generated by the different angles so only a small amount of hot air escapes upwards) just as a practical example of not so effective thermal dissipation design).

So knowing this, a more effective thermal dissipation redesign becomes obvious, if not obvious, then reading and understanding of thermal masses and effective heat dissipation is needed, thermodynamics FTW and the 4 laws that govern this discipline.

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Laithan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 20:47    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was toying with the idea of using the USB ports on the R9000 to power these USB fans. They are 40mm and I was thinking of sandwiching the transceiver between the two so there would be push/pull... use tiewraps/zipties to hold them together.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265752451852?hash=item3de0149b0c:g:DV4AAOSw4IxituWN

I could set the internal fan to run all the time... but ideally I'd like to replace the fan with an open frame but I'm not sure I will find anything that will fit the existing mounting method.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 22:35    Post subject: Reply with quote
I personally use and recommend AC Infinity USB fans. I have a couple of 40mm fans pulling air out of my ISP-provided modem/router (Arris DG3450) - there's enough passive air inlet area that there's no real need for a pusher fan of any sort. Dropped the temps quite a bit. In looking for info on the ISP router, I found this sourceforge link to an older version of firmware sources and build instructions... Shocked

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dg3450.arris/files/

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Laithan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:33    Post subject: Reply with quote
kernel-panic69 wrote:
I personally use and recommend AC Infinity USB fans. I have a couple of 40mm fans pulling air out of my ISP-provided modem/router (Arris DG3450)


Good call, thanks. I actually have several of the A/C infinity fans, two on top of my Yamaha RX-A2080 to keep it cool. I didn't realize they offered 40mm fans so I will likely go with them. EDIT: Bought a couple.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:46    Post subject: Reply with quote
Laithan wrote:
I could set the internal fan to run all the time... but ideally I'd like to replace the fan with an open frame but I'm not sure I will find anything that will fit the existing mounting method.

These exist 1:1 replacement (frameless idea comes from GPU stuff) these days there are more options for all sizes for PC cases even, so they have to have standard sized mounts or adapters.

If not and its hard to find, not all is lost, double sided padded adhesive tape resisting the temperatures found OR a small drop of thermal adhesive on mount points something that could be easily be pulled off for replacement/repair/maintenance, or a home made adapter to mount one to the other in a way that clearance is sufficient, this is a small fan so as long as its minimally secure and level vibration will be minimal/none and should stay in place. (I had done my AVR and my xbox legacy with GPU frmaless fans a few years back and they still stuck I used high grade thermal silicone which comes out easilly with a nylon prying tool)

The limit for the possibilities is imagination.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 17:10    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cracked 'er open today.. The fan is a standard 40mm x 10mm. Frameless might be a challenge because of the raised mounting holes but I could certainly get something more powerful in there (although that grill sync sux) that might actually reach further.

I was thinking of using a fan splitter and sticking a very small and thin fan directly on top of the internal shielding. I found a 30mm x 6mm Sunon. At this point I am just having fun with it but with some testing we'll be able to see what differences are (if any) between transceiver models and cooling solutions. For the center fan, I think I could upgrade to a 40mm x 15mm but I don't think 40mm x 20mm would fit. Looking at this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/324035327229?epid=2308271387&hash=item4b7202b4fd%3Ag%3AbJsAAOSwkAReFOj%7E&LH_BIN=1.


Last edited by Laithan on Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:10; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 18:40    Post subject: Reply with quote
You need to get the clearance between the top of the fan including perimeter and the top of the case to see what you can fit in there frameless wise.

Looking at the angle you shot for the SFP port a fan ontop blowing down is counter what hot air wants to do which is go up, so blowing sideways is a better alternative, but looking at the angles the surrounding bottom (around SFP port) half of the case doesnt look to have any ventilation holes to push this hot air out.

If you can identify all the existing ventilation holes in the case and their locations mount the fan on the SFP port where the path of least resistance/shorter path is between that point and the exhaust areas, shit design they slapped the 470uf capacitor right close enough to the SFP port and the power inlet is also blocking this path partially so if you mount the fan on opposite side, your blowing all that hot air at the capacitor, shit design indeed, me I would gt a replacement capacitor with long stems insulate the stems and solder it back away from that area (towards the space directly behind it) in a horizontal position, mind these capacitors may have a polarity if you're brave enough t go there.

Or your original instinct, even thought hot air want to go up, if the fan is strong enough it may work better, the alternative is mounting the fan on the SFP port the same side as the capacitor and that's a really terrible long path filled with obstructions.

You can also try to create enough air pressure (via more powerful fans) inside the case to push all that hot air out one way or another, also try to put the unit vertically instead of lying it horizontally. Like sticking another bigger fan on the top side of the case, blowing air downwards.

Just make sure adding two fans your power supply can handle the difference.

It's a semi clean unit, but I'de blow that dust out, since dust is a natural insulator before you close it up after playing around.

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